Sunday, September 03, 2006

Bat Kol: The Oven of 'Aknai

The following story, quoted on Bava Metzia 59b, is perhaps the most famous, and certainly the most important, story about a Bat Kol. This philosophical implications of this story are well worth discussing:
It has been taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument , but they did not accept them. Said he to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!’ Thereupon the carob-tree was torn a hundred cubits out of its place — others affirm, four hundred cubits. ‘No proof can be brought from a carob-tree,’ they retorted. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the stream of water prove it!’ Whereupon the stream of water flowed backwards — ‘No proof can be brought from a stream of water,’ they rejoined. Again he urged: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the walls of the schoolhouse prove it,’ whereupon the walls inclined to fall. But R. Joshua rebuked them, saying: ‘When scholars are engaged in a halachic dispute, what have ye to interfere?’ Hence they did not fall, in honour of R. Joshua, nor did they resume the upright, in honour of R. Eliezer; and they are still standing thus inclined. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!’ Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out: ‘Why do ye dispute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halachah agrees with him!’ But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: ‘It is not in heaven.’ What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because Thou hast long since written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, After the majority must one incline.


  • What does it mean “תורה לא בשמים היא”?

  • Why would Hashem create a system whereby he could be “overruled”?

  • If most of B’nai Yisroel decides to ignore a particular halacha, why do we not apply the principle of “תורה לא בשמים היא”?

71 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can totally get used to being the first to post. Ok, so here are my thoughts on that story and bat kol:
First of all, I think understanding that story is something I dont fully do, but if I did, I think I would have the key to Orthodox Judaism today. I mean, "torah lo bashamayim he" is in the Torah and literally does mean that the Torah isn't in the heavens. So that means it isnt for the angels. Great. But also its usually interpreted as our justification for middah d'rabbanan, but coming from my background, I have definetly heard from birth "oh it's something the Rabbis said so it doesn't really count".
Even though I know God wants me to trust the Rabbis to keep the Torah a living document, I can't help but to doubt a little when it comes to things like swimming on Shabbat (so you won't build a raft?) or, my super-favorite topic, gender roles. I mean, the Rabbis are just as biased, is what it seems to me, and that's why we learn their backgrounds...why else would we care that Rashi owned a vineyard or about all those stories with Rebbe Akiva? I know that these backgrounds aren't supposed to affect their opinions and thats what differentiates them from myself, but still, I have my doubts, especially when it comes to two stories we learned in Gemara last year, one with Rabbi Akiva showing extreme leniency with a poor person, to the point of absurdity, and two, the story about Rav Papa and not knowing his halachot so much.
In conclusion, I don't think we're supposed to override HaShem's decrees (aka the Torah) and that's what the story means. Rather, I think we're supposed to interpret them to keep the Torah and Judaism a living document.
PS I still wish I understood, especially when it comes to explaining why you're Ortho to Reform/Conservative/Reconstructionist/Humanist---it would completely be helpful if in the back of your head you weren't like well hey I kind of agree with you! Cheers! Also don't ask me why I'm checking this so late...I can't sleep and I'm avoiding work....
-Tali

September 04, 2006 12:54 AM  
Anonymous RayDott said...

Alrighty guys...So the way I interpreted this story was that Hashem gave us the Torah to study on our own. He gave us the minds and the mental capacity to dispute it, so when Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua were arguing, they were doing what was intended, arguing b'shaim shamayim, for the purpose of Torah knowledge. When Rabbi Eliezer relied on Hashem to back him up, Rabbi Yehoshua was simply reminding him that the Torah was given to humans to be studied and disputed by humans, and interference from heaven sort of defeats the whole concept of people studying the Torah and giving their own opinions. If Hashem always backed up the correct argument, machloket wouldnt exist, since one side would always be declared true and the other false.

September 04, 2006 10:01 AM  
Anonymous RayDott said...

PS: i realized that was alot of run on sentences, sorry guys. im sure if i had divided them with proper punctuation it would have been 4-5

September 04, 2006 10:03 AM  
Anonymous Suz said...

Hey yall,

So that story to me has always been fascinating, espically since we saw it acted out at the talmudic village on the mission freshman yeah. (yeah mission! so pumped!)I think that story in Talmud illustrates the Rabbi's authority. Also, this was at a time when true smicha existed, lit. saying one had learned as much as Moshe Rabbeinu. Moshe was pretty high up and to say one knew as much as him is something. HaShem trusts us to make the right decision and even if we don't, He knows we're doing the best with what we can. I don't like to think that our olam habah will depend on whether an oven is pure b/c to me, thats just not HaShem.
I find the ending which was truncated from this rendition more interesting. The rabbi who argued and brought down the natural proofs and bat kol was put in cherem and wandered around. (am i right? i remember that from somewhere...)

Have a great day!

September 05, 2006 1:23 AM  
Blogger luna said...

hey kids,
this story always freaked me out a little bit. also, i dont think its true. i think someone made it up to teach us a very valueble lesson. i agree with what tali said about stuff rabbis say "not counting". all my life ive been trying to figure that out. over the years ive learned that the rabbis are just trying to protect and help us. i guess whoever made up this story knew that people would, in a snese, doubt the authority of the rabbaim. in the story it goes through a million different things that Hashem did to prove that rav Eliezer was right. i think this is trying to show uc the extent of authority that rabbis have. they can move walls! stam, i think by the analogy of the flowing river and walls moving it shows that rabbaim have lots of authority... hmmm...

September 05, 2006 9:28 PM  
Blogger Yoni Krestt said...

Good points. I particularly enjoyed Luna’s analyzing the details of the story. That is a critical approach in studying אגדתא. Whether or not you believe every detail of the story happened is often less relevant than understanding the message the authors/recorders are trying to convey.

I’d like to clarify one point raise by Tali. The principle of תורה לא בשמים היא refers not to the Rabbis authority to create new laws (גזירות and תקנות) – which stems from a number of פסוקים in ספר דברים. Rather it refers to their authority in defining and applying the principles laid out explicitly in the Torah. In the case under discussion, the debate is how we categorize a particular type of oven. Depending on that categorization, we would apply different rules of טומאה. Consequently, while a discussion about the nature and purpose of גזירות would be worthwhile, it is related to this particular text. Gender roles, in particular relating to תפילה and hair-covering, relate to yet a third discussion: the power of communal מנהג and social norms.

September 06, 2006 4:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In class I asked the question Why does God need a navi to send us a message. I know it doesnt actually pertain to the specific article Rabbi krestt put up but it's about Navi and Nevuah so it'll make do. Why does God need a navi to relay his message to us? As a jewish kid learning about other religions as well I have been told that we have no intermediary between us and Hashem, unlike other religions. Yet the navi can be looked at as an itermediary. He is forwarding some sort of message from Hashem to Bnei Yisrael. Therefore a Bat Kol and Ruach Hakodesh seem to be entirely disconected from nevuot. Because a Bat kol is something from God that everyone can here therefore it is not given to a single intermediary and then passed down to the "masses". And Ruach Hakodesh is a "divine pressence" that allows a high scholar to recieve knowledge in order to answre torah questions. I dont exactly Know where i was going to go with this but i just think it is an important thought to think about when learning Navi. (sorry about the spelling)
-IRIS-

September 07, 2006 9:06 PM  
Blogger Yoni Krestt said...

Iris, did you get a chance to look at the comments on the first blog? I think it will more directly relate to your question.

You can follow >this link.

September 07, 2006 10:37 PM  
Anonymous chavie said...

am i using the right link? im not very bright. anyways, i also don't really understand the story bc a) im exhausted and b) maybe i shouldve read it twice. anyhoo, i agree with luna...even though she did use the word word "stam" -nice touch, luna... Rabbaim do have a certain level of authority--do they know it all? obviously not, or else there wouldn't be one God. Do i agree with everything theyve come up with? no. but then again, who else is gonna do all that stuff for us. there are certain times in my life when im like well why do they have all the say. but they do it for us, for their fellow jewish people. And there's nothing that says we cant have our own opinions. but the rabbaim give us guidelines, and bc theyre the ones so kindly doing that for us, then yes im gonna very bluntly say rabbis rule. and you should appreciate them. uuh...thank you very much and gooodnight kindalach.
P.S: im not revising this or reading it over so forgive me if it makes less sense than anything youve ever read/encountered.
Amen

September 09, 2006 11:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi,
We are not ever really "overruling" Hashem. The torah has an interesting quality-its format is of rigdity, yet also intense ambiguity! IT is true that we are supposed to interepret the torah to keep ti a "living document-" but Bnai Yisrael cannot jsut choose to ignore a halacha because they have the power to interpret the Torah. There are defined laws of machloket and interpetations. we are also taught not to trust jsut any interpretation, and there are dafeguards around faulty interpretations. we are taught that gematria is merely a remez, or a hint to toher things, not something defined. The concordance exists in case we want to make a correlation between words-without jsut making suppostiions. In conclusion, interpretation of the torah is SO important-to keep torah lviing, to make torah personal, etc-but people cant jsut interpret flippantly. so the rabbi was right. essentially.
-Dasi

October 02, 2006 11:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

okay, so i didnt read all the comments so i mgiht be repeating what others have said, but whatever. i think that " Torah lo bashamayim he" shows that after the Torah was given to us Hashem ordained the rabbis to decipher the law. when the majority of Rabbis agree on something it becomes the law, evne if it isnt what it was meant to be. For example, in the Mishnayot of
Rosh Hashanah, we were learning about how the testimony of witnesses effected when the month would fall out. one rabbi had said that if the testimony came a day later than the new moon in reality, that it didnt matter and the month should start on the correct date b/c it was preordaine dby the heaven. another rAbbi argued that it did matter, and the month started on the day of the testimonies b/c God commanded rabbis to determine it. jsut like this, God gives us the torah in which the Rabbis decipher what Hashem really wants from us.
we dont apply the principle of "Torah lo b'shamayim he" if the majortiy of israel ignores a particular Halacha, b.c the idea that Torah is kind of up to man to decipher usually is only applied when either figuring out how to follow a particular law, or when adding a law {e.g. women daveining mincha- since the majortiy did it , it now became a halacha}.

October 03, 2006 8:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^ oh right, that was Tamar Schneck

October 03, 2006 8:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Essentially, I agree with pretty much everything that has been said. I just want to add that I find halacha kind of refreshing sometimes because it is so relatively unchanging. When I go back and reread different meforshim over the years, I read them from different perspectives. Honestly, it is pretty rare for a halacha to change or be added or subtracted. Further,change, when it does happen, is generally pretty slow. Thus, I can see changes in myself and others when we reread the texts together. I suppose that all the Rabbis weren't right in everything they ever taught, (after all if they were than there would be no machlocket), but because of the respect alloted for rabinical authority, I have come to relate to the texts more throughly.
-Rachael R.

October 04, 2006 7:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh right, um I didn't actually answer the questions there. Ok, so "Torah Lo Bashamaim Hee" means that because we are human, we were given the Torah to interpret on our level. This doesn't mean, or at least doesn't mean Halachically, that we can just spew out any interpretation that happens to float our boat that day. There is a great deal of respect given to the Halachic process and all, and we can't just disregard it. Humanity, inherently, can not function on the plane of the heavens; we can not be like Gods or Angels, or Heavenly creatures. We are human and prone to sin and thus have to make our own courts of law. Even in matters of spirituality, we are prone to sin. We were made from dust and we will return to dust. Thus we can not reach spiritual perfection through law and humanity. The point is to strive for perfection, but perfection itself is impossible. This is also why it is so important to lead a meaningful and tangibly satisfying life, without it we would be left with the harshness of the law. We still however, have to have some regard for mesorah and a degree of trust in the Rabbis in order to function as a halachic society, this is why even if most of the Jews disobey certain laws, they are still considered valid. There is a belief that they were in some way handed down from Hashem and thus we have no right to change them, even if we do not understand them in our present impure state. It is written in the Torah that we should listen to the words of the Rabanim. When knowledge of a pure spiritual society fails, we turn to deductive reasoning to settle our disputes. This can be irksome when we have to use this type of tangible knowlege to comment on the intangible-the spiritual, but as humans we are left to struggle with the halachic system-this is our challenge.
-Rachael
btw, sorry if I rambled a lot there, I won't be offended if you skip over my repetitiveness.

October 04, 2006 8:17 PM  
Blogger saragaut said...

i would like to focus on the question of why Hashem created a system in which he can be overruled?
well, obviously hashem can't be overruled (especaially if what suzanne said about the man going to cherem is correct). the law of majority rule was not intended to apply to Hashem b/c it's physically impossible seeing as Hashem controls evrything. i see majority rule as more of a ben adam lechavero situation, but it is so obvious that hashem the creator and controller of all is not subject to his own laws.
torah lo bashamiim hi is a ridiculous notion, it is basically saying that because Hashem spoke to us once it is no longer possible for him to rule us again with a bat kole. in my opinion if Hashem speaks to you, you dont retort and say "uh uh too bad you already told us one thing you can't change your mind." i mean helloooo its g-d.
wtvr this topic frustrated me have a good succos

October 06, 2006 2:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My opinion on "torah lo bashamiim he" is wrong because I believe that Hashem's "words"/ Torah overrules what the Rabbis say. I also agree with Tali, when she says that the Rabbis are biased. I believe this is true because in one particular story, there was a poor woman who had a non-kosher chicken but went to the rabbi to ask him to check if her chicken was kosher or not (since it was the only thing she could prepare to eat). The rabbi then, knowning that she was poor and had difficulty with finding food to prepare, had "checked" the chicken and told her that it was fine (meaning to say that it's kosher). But really it wasn't. Compared to a different story: when a person had to work on yom tov in order to support their family, the rabbis said that it was NOT allowed; even though it might of meant that the person would lose his job and his/her family would go hungry. There I find that rabbis are inconsistent. On the one hand with the story with the poor lady, the lady had nothing else to prepare to eat and so the rabbi gave her a right to eat it...since he somehow found a way/some kind of situation that could of been/was related to in the torah. But also what about the person who needed to support his/her family?! Then that person really wouldn't have any food, if they were fired from their job. I'm not sure how the rabbis can do this, say yes to one that is really forbidden, and say no to another. I mean yes yom tov is like shabbat and holy, but it's not shabbat. The torah says to keep kosher and the Shabbat, not yom tov.
Another example is that you are (somehow) allowed to pick the good from the bad but not vise versa. Also, you are not allowed to smooth your lip balm or towel onto your lips or skin but are allowed to pat it on (but yet there is the same basic result)...
It seems that a lot of times if you are trying to do something that you're not allowed to do, the rabbis will try to find some way to go around the issur part of the act. I believe that there are inconsistencies when it comes to what the rabbis say to what Hashem/the Torah say to do. I believe this is a reason why many people are not or lose interest in the Orthodox rabbis' opinions or the Orthodox beliefs, since they are considered to be like hypocrites. Thus, many Jews move away from rabbis and orthodox judaism with a very negative and inconsistent vibe.


-Yaelle

October 11, 2006 1:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a seperate/ connected continuation:

This also connects with Bat Kol b/c most people today feel that the rabbis laws/rules should be amended or really be changed, in order to fit appropriately with today's technology and society. One perfect example is when one walks up stairs rather than get on an elevator and press a botton on shabbat. To the rabbis, going on an elevator and pressing a botton is apperently more work than to walk up (numerous) flights of stairs.
Although I know most people are going to say that the reason why we don't do that is because one of the beautiful aspects of Judaism is the fact that we keep old traditions. We don't do any activity that reminds us that it's shabbat and to not do mundane or routine work that we would usually do, since shabbat is so holy and special. Well honestly if one who has a hard time walking up flights of stairs, such as a strugling, old person, walking up flights every shabbat would obviously remind them how painful and discomfurting shabbat can be.
I can then also bring up the topic of what a girl "needs" to wear in order to be considered as tzenuah. I don't think that the exact measurements between 1/2 and 3/4 length sleeves or if married, being allowed to show only 2-3 fingers of hair. I really don't think it matters and that Hashem is going to punish you or not love you even more so if you don't keep these rules; all in order to be considered as covered or so to say "kosher". Rather, I think what REALLY is important is how you act and what you do. Since I believe that actions speak louder than words. People need to work on themselves in order to think or say that they are an "orthodox" Jew. For example, a person can daven 3 times a day, be all covered up from neck to toe, keep kashrut and shabbat, but go home and physically and/ or verbally assult their spouse and/ or kids and/ or not support their children. Yet most rabbis say that's fine, they a "good" and "orthodox" jew b/c they have done and "followed" the torah's commandments. To me that is absolutely outrageous and a huge chillul Hashem. How can anyone, especially a rabbi have the audacity to say such a thing?!!? It seems that people DON'T actually comprehend the way to live life according to the Torah. To me, such a person has truely failed to understand the values and beauty the Torah really teach us.
I believe that the Torah was given for Jews to follow and abide by, rather than to listen to Rabbis. I understand that the rabbis are "defining and applying the principles laid out explicitly in the Torah"(Rabbi Krestt) in order to teach and help the Jewish people, but I also feel that most rabbis really have taken their control and authority to a more controlling and dictative manner than what Hashem really intended it to be. In my opinion Rabbis are like today's "neviim"; in the sense that rabbis feel that they are the intermediary between Hashem and the Jewish people. Therefore, rabbis feel like they have the power to perhaps control the way a person should live their life even though,
Jews have the option to either listen and follow what they say or don't. This is another reason strongly feel why people don't listen and follow what the the rabbis have to say. Although I do understand and agree that people shouldn't go to the extreme and totally disregard what the rabbis have to say and make up their interpretation completely. But I also feel that the rabbis should be careful with their decisions and rules and also be understanding of today's society. They should also be consistent rather than making extreme exceptions that are forbidden in the Torah, such as eating non-kosher meat (for one example). Therefore I believe that there is only one Almighty true opinion, which IS in shamiim.


-Yaelle

October 11, 2006 1:10 AM  
Blogger Yoni Krestt said...

Yaelle,

Halacha is neither black nor white. It is filled with grays. What you perceive as an inconsistencies relates to those self-same gray areas. In the case of the chicken, it really _was_ kosher. There are plenty of cases where there is a machloket about a particular issue. While we generally follow one opinion -- say that of Tosfot -- in certain circumstances (such as significant loss of money like by the poor woman's chicken), we can follow another respected opinion – say that of the Rosh. That doesn’t mean we can adopt a position that is counter to all opinions. In the case of working on Yom Tov, that is clearly forbidden according to all opinions.

Similarly, your issue about usage of elevators versus stairs stems from a simple mistranslation of the concept of melacha. While this is not the place to discuss it, according to all opinions using an elevator (at least pushing the buttons) is considered melacha while moving furniture or climbing stairs is not. As someone pointed out earlier, the Rabbis don’t have the ability to do whatever they choose. But the system has some built in “wiggle-room” that they can utilize if necessary.

I hope this helps clarify the issues.

October 16, 2006 9:45 PM  
Blogger Beverly said...

What is a Bat Kol? It seems to be distinct from God, who also speaks in this story, but in a system of monotheism, to whom does the bat kol belong?

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