Tali's Horoscope
Posted by Tali
"For Sunday, September 3 -Today is an excellent day to gauge your progress, so take some time to look around you and assess your situation. With your flexible schedule and your impeccable sense of timing, you're able to see what's well on its way to being complete -- and what needs your extra attention right now. If one of your friends has been acting out of character, they might be a candidate for that extra attention. Give it to them generously like you always do, and you won't regret it."
That would be my horoscope. I don't really know what's up with the "flexible schedule" and "impeccable sense of timing", but I do know that many, many people read this paragraph every day in the Washington Post, get it sent to their cell phones, or go to a professional who tells it to them. But what does any of this have to do with nevuah? Here's my proposal: Horoscopes are just another way that humans today find the need to get in touch with "up there". I think we can learn a lot about another one of my subjects this year, psychology, through the need that nevuah fills. An interesting question that this also brings up is borderline free will, about our relationship with God and knowing what lies ahead of us, but trying to avoid it. Yonah might even be tied in here. Anyway, to the questions:
In human history, what other means have been pursued to achieve a sense of knowledge about our destiny?
Why do we buy into it, or have the need to buy into it?
How are horoscopes similar and different from nevuah, and why doesn't religion/God always satisfy?
posted by Yoni Krestt at 2:53 PM
14 Comments:
okay tali im gonna admit that i really dont understand a word of your post, so my answer is gonna sound idiotic...im only gonna answer the last question too soo...yea.
okay so how are nevuahs similar/different from horoscopes? they are similar bc they give ppl messages from "the beyond" (ha). ppl who read their horoscopes feel good about their day bc its kind of predestined. and ppl who used to get nevuahs had the privilege of knowing what to do about certain sitches aka situations.
they are different bc horoscopes are just written by a bunch of so called astrologists trying to make a quick buck. Nevuahs were directly from Hashem so even if people ahem ahem Yonah (listen up there mister) dont listen at first, the Nevuah is real.
I really dont know what you mean by "why doesnt god/religion satisfy?", but for horoscopes, sometimes they dont come true, and ppl start not to believe wtvr they used to believe. i cant relate the question nevuah bc i dont know how.
sorry if that was the most incoherent response ever.
peace
p.s: yea being the first post!
p.p.s: i wouldnt be surprised if there are no more posts bc this ones a toughie
10-4
Reading horoscopes comes from a desire to know the future. Our desire to know the future is human curiosity of the unkown. Palm readings, Tea Leaves, and other fortue telling tricks are all ways for us to "know out future"....but when one gets one of the things mentioned above done. The details given are generally ambiguous, if correct at all.
Many people want to get in touch with "up-there" because they are scared of what can go on "down here" they want to know if in a day everything will be OK, better, or worse. People are conscious of the world around them. and many people are even more conscious of how fast thier world can spin out of control.
Debie K
HAHAH im just guna say i love chavies 2nd post. but to answer some of Talis questions-1) i have no idea how in human history what means have been pursued in order to achieve a sense of knowledge about our destiny- i mean people could go to psycics and whatnot, but the only real way one could learn about their destiny or others' detsiny would be through nevuah. Hashem is the only one who actually knows what will happen to us in the furute. Humans tend to buy into horoscopes and psycics or at least have the want and need to buy it because some people are extremely OCD and feel like they need all aspects of their life to be planned out. no, but seriously some people feel a need to see what their destiny will be. Even though some people who read their horoscopes know that its deffinately made up by people and will most likeely not come true, they read it and try to belive it because perhaps it will give guidance to them and in addition, sometimes it may work out, not because the horoscope said it but because the person will subconciously make it happen because of the fact that they read it. Horoscopes i guess can be similar to nevuah in that they "predict" ones destiny, but thats about it as nevuah is the only real way one can learn about their destiny or the happenings of the future. I would say that Nevuahs are the only thing that can come true, but horoscopes can too. but not on the same conditions. Nevuahs come true because Hashem will make it come true as the nevuah came from him, but horoscopes can come true, possibly by coincidence but also because a person will subconciously make it come true becaus ethey want it to come true after reading it.
I agree with Debbie. I think that people always want to know what is happening and feel in control. Reading horoscopes, reading their fortunes and palm readings all help people feel in control becuase they can anticipate what their fortune has foretold for them. Addtionally, people are curious and have hope that their fortunes will work. I remember learnign in psych class, the pseudo psychology (aka horoscopes) give many poeple comfort becuase it gives them knowledge about what their future has in store for them.
Amanda:)
Horoscopes, like palm readings and tarot cards, are believed by many people. The descriptions tend to contain vague statements that can apply to almost anyone. People find these readings compelling because they are created just for you. The words that are written down about your birthday, or your palm, are written by astrologers specifically for you. But how can anyone blame you, who doesn’t want to find out about their future-even if it’s not the most reliable of sources. Curiosity often gets the best of us, even if we try to convince ourselves that these predictions are not true. Currently, we do not have neviim walking around telling us what is going to happen to us in the near future. Now this may be a good thing-who wants to be told that they are going to be destroyed- but at the same time, it would be nice to know how to fix what we are doing wrong. I can’t remember the last time someone seriously me that God spoke to them and told them of their future. The palm readers and tarot card interpreters are easily accessed to tell us exactly what we want to hear.
Naomi
You mentioned that your specific horoscope was found within the pages of the Washington post. The Chartumim in Mitzraim were most probably dressed in glittering robes and performed on a grand stage. True, many neviim were rich, but did that mean they got up and danced, appealing to to the public to say what they wanted to hear(like many of the commentators on this post said). I think not. In a way, Neviim crafted their words to fir the needs of the people. Chagai attempted to lure the people to Jerusalem with moving and active phrases. He could not have used any way of speaking; they were too comfortable in their land. It doe not seem, however, that Chagai said. “In Israel, you will be more prosperous than you are now.” Neviim are truer and more sincere in their messages. I do agree with tali that in every generation there is something that helps people escape their everyday lives. (magicians, horoscope) but neviiim are necessities not entertainment.
-dasi
firstly, tali i disagree with your veiw that horoscopes help people go "beyond" aka "up there" b.c for horosccopes they are looking towards the stars not towards God, horoscope in my oinion buys into the whole God didnt create the world and hunmans have the ability to know everything. whereas nevuah is a direct connection with God. additionally i agree with the piont that humans feel the need to know their future/evyerthing about themselves/the world but that is fulfille din my piont of view by rleigion. some people feel the need to know more than others...and htye believe that in order ot know all one must either know god more or have a dogmatic veiw and believe that God holds the answers...which fulfills thier questions. for those whom donnot buy into the whole god holds all answers therefore we dont rly need ot search for questins there is science and horoscopes.
~tamar shcneck
p.s. i didnt realzie that my last piont was adressed in you last question...sorry
`~tamar shcneck
The first 2 of tali's questions seem to have been answered enough so i'm just gona address the last questions. aside from that Nevuah is true and from Hashem and horoscopre aren't, i think the fundamental difference between horoscopes and nevuah is that horoscpes are personal and nevuah almost always deals withthe big picture. Even when nevuah is about one or few ppl, those ppl's future concerens the rest of the Jews or other nations. As for the last question, im not quite sure what tali means. Do you mean why doesn't religion/G-d always satify ppl's needs? or why doesn't religion/G-d fulfill the nevuah? if it's the first one, then it's because what people "need", or want, rather, itsn't always whats best for them or best for the world (in the long run). i think Hashem runs the world on what He sees as the best for the most ppl for the longest amt of time. maybe what you need/want doesn't fit in with that. If it's the 2nd one, then i'll say that G-d does always fulfill. i dont think i've ever learned about a nevuah that was not fulfilled (or retracted without good reason).
-Laya
i never thought about horoscopes being oddly connected to nevah-i like it!!!
horoscopes are different though because theyre generic- they come true for everysingle person in the world. when i read the occasional horoscope, i realze thats its not only the libra that fits my life, the taurus gemini and pisces usually do as well! coincidence? i think not! basically theyre fake, and nevuah isnt. in fact, the whole idea of horoscopes and future telling prob came form nevuah itself! the thing is, ppl like to know whats coming, and theyre willing to belive anything as long as they know and are in control. nevuah isnt like that. nuff said.
Aviva
In addition and side point to what everyone is saying, I also think that besides human curiousity and the need to be "in control", usually, humans also want to hear all sides of a story. That is why a lot of times, girls will ask their friends to ask the guy that they like, to see if the guy likes the girl back...in order to find out if the waters are safe and see if they will be satisfied or displeased/ get hurt. Today, people are very sensitive, they will even sometimes go to the extreme, all in order not to get hurt. That is one of the reasons why parents spoil their children so much. Since the parents are afraid that later on their child will (extreme version):hate them and perhaps never talk to them, blame them for not satisfying they needs/ not letting them do whatever they want , etc, parents will try and do anything in order for their child to be happy. Another example is shown when (G-d forbid) people are kidnapped. The person who is kidnapped is so afraid of being hurt or killed that they won't take an appropriate action to free themselves and get out of the harmful and dangerous situation, at the appropriate/ correct time. If the person is mindful and cautious, they will take any opportunity to try and get out of being harmed. By passing up that opportunity, people are then stuck because of fear. (enough rabbling and example...) Relating back to the post, and what Aviva said, people want to be in control and know everything so that they can prepare and prevent it.
Also, when people are bored or have no inspiration I think that they are also then curious to find out/ be told what to do. Some people like to be told what to do...it's like a reminder that they need to take action or focus on a specific thing...(get up, take action and make a difference in their and other people's lives)- instead of just wasting their life away or not fixing something that needs to be changed. Although I don't think this is true for every case, I think the reason to why people are so interested in "knowing the future" is that they don't know- what to do, scared to what may come their way, and want to know how to prevent it = a bad event, situation or problem from happening in the first place. Take marriage for example, so many people get cold feet and go to friends, family and fortune tellers, in order to try and find out if the person is right for them. People seek (re-)assurance from others. It's just a natural habit...people want to feel good about themselves. Therefore, besides being told what will happen, or what to focus on, people like to feel that they can prevent something bad from happening- change their bad fate and live happily ever after.
-Yaelle
P.S. Rabbi Krestt, this comment kind of has 2 in one. Can you count it as two comments please??...plus, it's long!
To your question why do we buy into it? It seems with us 21st century Americans, we always need other people telling us what to do with our lives and how to act. Whether is ranges from a therapist, teacher, parent, or even a tiny paragraph in the paper. When we are confused with our lives, any form of advice seems helpful. And there are alot of us at time when we need all the help we can get, which is why some people get horoscopes every day. Why anyone would trust the solar system/astrologists to help their issues bemuses me, but whatever floats their boats. They are similar to nevuahs because we rely on what other people say about our futures to be accurate. But the main difference is, nevuahs are proven to be true and directly from Hashem. Horoscopes have no actual proof that they are true.
Alrighty then, I'm really going to agree with Tamar and Sara on this one! I mean come on this is ridiculous! I really don't see how people can compare or even have the slightest thought that a prophecy from a prophet could be even close to a horoscope. The horoscope isn't even coming from the same source as the prophecy, let alone having the same beliefs of the origins. A horoscope is coming from an untrustworthy lady named Cleo who probably doesn't even believe in God and only believes in the alignment of stars and constellations and things of that nature and she is going to tell you what you want to hear. A prophecy is coming from a trustworthy prophet chosen by Hashem Himself and this prophet's beliefs are with Hashem and the prophecy is from Hashem (if I didn't already say that). Plus this prophecy is way more important/significant/useful to your life! Also believing in horoscopes, tarot cards, hand readers, etc. is a form of Avodah Zarah. Why would you want to turn away from Hashem just to get your completely false layout for the day? I don't understand those kinds of people.
To talk about the question of "why doesn't religion/God always satisfy?" This is a toug question to answer because I don't think I have ever thought that Judaism or Hashem hasn't satisfied me, or whenever I've had something so bad happen or not get something I should have (something like that), I've never come to the conclusion that it was because Judaism or Hashem wasn't good enough for me. I'll try to answer. Maybe one of the reasons that religion/God might not always satisfy because people expect too much for themselves. Just because a person is extremely religious and lives a devout life doesn't mean that they are going to have a great life or that they will get what they want in life. I can really only say this for God, that we will never understand the way that He works or decides things so I really don't see how a person can be upset by it.
~Stepho~
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